Author Topic: Imaging session Jan 2009  (Read 2991 times)

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Carole

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Imaging session Jan 2009
« on: Jan 23, 2009, 23:05:09 »
Can I double check this is on Thursday 29th?

Mike, if it is cloudy can I request some tuition on use of filters and adding colour to B&W images.  I am thinking about taking the next step and getting my webcam modified which will then make it B&W and would like to know how to put colour back into the image.

Thanks

Carole

Mike

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Re: Imaging session Jan 2009
« Reply #1 on: Jan 23, 2009, 23:46:59 »
You can only 'add' colour if you have captured colour data using filters.

Sure I can talk about filters no problem.
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Carole

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Re: Imaging session Jan 2009
« Reply #2 on: Jan 24, 2009, 13:28:07 »
Quote
You can only 'add' colour if you have captured colour data using filters.
Aha, lesson number 1.

So I need to buy filters as well, would it be the gadget you showed at the Imaging session which was a sort of wheel that rotated with various filters which cost £250?
Could you buy the filters individually rather than use the wheel, obviously this is fiddly, but might be cheaper?
You can answer that at the Imaging session if you like.

Carole

Mike

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Re: Imaging session Jan 2009
« Reply #3 on: Jan 25, 2009, 09:22:07 »
A wheel is from £50 upwards and filter sets are usually around £80 upwards. A wheel is essential unless you have a rock solid mount as you will upset the image train. You could only not use  wheel if you were guaranteed to take the imaging kit apart, put in your new filter and put it back inexactly the same place without moving your mount at all. Unless you have an AP1200 or a paramount that is not going to happen.

There are cheaper options such as filter slides which allow one filter at a time to be slid into the imaging train. Speak to Bern at Modern Astronomy he will advise you best on what you need and he is usually the cheapest (if you tell him you can find an item cheaper elsewhere he will usualy match or beat the price too).
We live in a society exquisitely dependent on science and technology, in which hardly anyone knows anything about science and technology. Carl Sagan

JohnP

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Re: Imaging session Jan 2009
« Reply #4 on: Jan 25, 2009, 10:28:46 »
Carole if you are going to get into monochrome imaging & get filter sets then you definitely need a filter wheel - you will drive your self crazy if you don't have one.... believe me I've played around with manually swapping filters & it's a nightmare... If you get something like Astronomik Type II they are parfocal which means you do not have to refocus when you go to a different filter. I picked my LRGB Astronomik type II set up from Astrofest for about £125 CASH deal though - this was a big saving over the then list price...

John

Carole

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Re: Imaging session Jan 2009
« Reply #5 on: Jan 25, 2009, 14:50:25 »
This sounds like another page to add to my FAVOURITES. 

John, when you said cash, I assume you mean hard money as opposed to cards or cheques.  I am planning to go to Astrofest, so will see if I can find something.

I understand what you are all saying and it seems sense to get a wheel. 

Carole

JohnP

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Re: Imaging session Jan 2009
« Reply #6 on: Jan 25, 2009, 15:25:46 »
yep hard money - there is a cashpoint just around the corner...it's where I went to get mine out.... :-)

Carole

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Re: Imaging session Jan 2009
« Reply #7 on: Jan 25, 2009, 17:34:07 »
Quote
there is a cashpoint just around the corner
Good tip, I am not normally a cash person, as I never know how much I am going to need.

Carole

mickw

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Re: Imaging session Jan 2009
« Reply #8 on: Jan 25, 2009, 17:57:56 »
Carole,
It will always be more than you've got - if that helps  ;)
Growing Old is mandatory - Growing Up is optional

Carole

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Re: Imaging session Jan 2009
« Reply #9 on: Jan 25, 2009, 19:53:44 »
Before I go buying filter sets, I do have a LP filter which is labelled Ultrablock TM Narrowband 1.25".  When I use this everything appears green.

I am just checking that I haven't already got one of the filters that I need.
I guess it probably isn't but it is the green aspect that is giving me some doubt.

I have written this all in the negative. 
Therefore. 

Have I already got one of the filters I need for a filter wheel?

Thanks
Carole


Ian

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Re: Imaging session Jan 2009
« Reply #10 on: Jan 25, 2009, 20:26:13 »
you might. It depends what filters you want to put in your filter wheel. You've got a colour camera, and so with a small number of exceptions, filters are not going to be hugely useful. Have you tried with the one you have? Without looking it up, I suspect it's a narrowband light pollution rejection filter, and the green cast may process out. You'll probably need to stack it with an IR filter as well, which you should already have.

Once you go to a mono camera, then filters are absolutely essential if you want any colour image of any sort. If someone's going to talk about at Mike's this week, I'd listen to that primer first, then have a think about what sort of imaging you're planning on doing and then think about filters. They can be extremely expensive so you need to know exactly what you want (unless you're really rich ;) )

Carole

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Re: Imaging session Jan 2009
« Reply #11 on: Jan 25, 2009, 21:49:07 »
Hi Ian,

I think you might have missed a previous bit of conversation I had with Mike in this thread, as I am thinking of having my webcam modified making it B&W so I can do some basic deep sky stuff and so will need a filter wheel to put back colour into the images.  (Yes I know I still have the ETX but Rome wasn't built in a day and I have to do this in stages, both financially and from a staged learning point of view), I know that you can do some limited deep sky stuff with an ETX.

Was just checking whether the LPR (green) filter I have might be one I would need for the filter wheel.

Can some-one tell me how many filters I will need and what they are.

I already have the one stated:
Ultrablock TM Narrowband 1.25" (green)
IR filter

I have heard others talking about Ha filters.

Quote
It depends what filters you want to put in your filter wheel
I just want to put back the colour that one might get using a colour camera.

Hope this makes sense.

Carole

Mike

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Re: Imaging session Jan 2009
« Reply #12 on: Jan 25, 2009, 22:38:35 »
In which case you need an LRGB set.
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Carole

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Re: Imaging session Jan 2009
« Reply #13 on: Jan 25, 2009, 23:00:39 »
Thanks Mike.

I'll ask any further questions at the Imaging session.

Carole

Ian

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Re: Imaging session Jan 2009
« Reply #14 on: Jan 25, 2009, 23:40:27 »
fair enough. I would explore the possibility of buying a dedicated mono camera rather than getting your webcam modified for mono. Just an opinion based on having had both...

RobertM

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Re: Imaging session Jan 2009
« Reply #15 on: Jan 26, 2009, 08:53:07 »
Quote
Before I go buying filter sets, I do have a LP filter which is labelled Ultrablock TM Narrowband 1.25".  When I use this everything appears green.

Carole, it appears green because it's a filter for enhancing contrast of nebulas (OIII predominantly).  More importantly it's designed for visual use and has no IR block, this makes it bad for most CCD work.

Rocket Pooch

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Re: Imaging session Jan 2009
« Reply #16 on: Jan 26, 2009, 09:15:42 »
When I started doing LRGB I used some meade planetary filters, they worked, although not as well as proper ones, but they were about £10.

Mike

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Re: Imaging session Jan 2009
« Reply #17 on: Jan 26, 2009, 09:18:55 »
.....More importantly it's designed for visual use and has no IR block, this makes it bad for most CCD work.

That is a valid point Carole. tghere are visiaul filters and imaging filters, both are different and designed for different purposes as the eye and a CCD camera are both sensitive to different wavelengths. The eye cannot see IR and so IR blockers are not included in visual filters. However, CCD's are very sensitive to IR and to a degree ultraviolet too and these are usually blocked out by imaging filters.
We live in a society exquisitely dependent on science and technology, in which hardly anyone knows anything about science and technology. Carl Sagan

Ian

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Re: Imaging session Jan 2009
« Reply #18 on: Jan 26, 2009, 09:46:03 »
When I started doing LRGB I used some meade planetary filters, they worked, although not as well as proper ones, but they were about £10.

I was thinking about making a mistake at the other end of the scale...

Would you recommend that set Chris?

Carole

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Re: Imaging session Jan 2009
« Reply #19 on: Jan 26, 2009, 09:46:50 »
Thanks every-one, so based on recent advice, it looks like I need a set of LRGB filters (which block also out IR).  
Quote
Insert Quote
When I started doing LRGB I used some meade planetary filters, they worked, although not as well as proper ones, but they were about £10.
 thanks Chris, but I think I'll go for the proper ones while I am at it.
Quote
I would explore the possibility of buying a dedicated mono camera rather than getting your webcam modified for mono.
OK I'll look into that, but won't I also need a camera for guiding and my current camera does not show stars, so will have to get two anyway.

Carole


Mike

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Re: Imaging session Jan 2009
« Reply #20 on: Jan 26, 2009, 09:52:52 »
If your current camera does not show stars what are you going to use it for?
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Carole

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Re: Imaging session Jan 2009
« Reply #21 on: Jan 26, 2009, 09:56:58 »
Quote
If your current camera does not show stars what are you going to use it for?
Exactly, that's why I was going to get it modified.  However was unhappy about having to lose the colour aspect, which was why I wanted to get LRGB filters.

Once modified I can then use it for my main camera or the guide scope, which do you think it would be best for?

Carole


Ian

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Re: Imaging session Jan 2009
« Reply #22 on: Jan 26, 2009, 09:59:14 »
OK I'll look into that, but won't I also need a camera for guiding and my current camera does not show stars, so will have to get two anyway.

Using a modified mono webcam as a guide camera is an idea, it's what I do (did, I suppose, as I haven't imaged in a while) and I think just about the only justification now for doing the mod. That said, keeping an eye on astrobuysell for second hand cameras you might be able to pick up a bargain guide cam if you're patient. Just bear in mind, you don't need to guide to do deep sky, it's just the list of potential targets is a bit short.

When you mention getting your webcam modified, is it already modded for long exposure, or will it need that as well?

Carole

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Re: Imaging session Jan 2009
« Reply #23 on: Jan 26, 2009, 10:46:57 »
Quote
When you mention getting your webcam modified, is it already modded for long exposure, or will it need that as well?
Duh, dunno!

I have left a message on Bernard's answerphone (Modern Astronomy) as he sold me the camera so will know what it can do. 
Just had a nervous breakdown looking at the prices of some of the DS cameras on the web!!!!!
............ Interruption mid post.
Bernard has just rung me back.

Think I might have to bite the bullett and buy the whole kit, new scope and mount the lot!!!

He has recommended the following, just wondered what your thoughts are:

Sky-Watcher Equinox - from £239
http://www.modernastronomy.com/telescopes_swRefractors.htm

Camera
http://www.modernastronomy.com/camerasQHY.htm#qhy8
QHY6 - from £339

+ HEQ5 Syntrax GOTO mount £699

Plus Guide camera QHY5 £159
CCD camera QHY6 £339


Total £1406 without the filters
Ouch!!

Carole

Mike

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Re: Imaging session Jan 2009
« Reply #24 on: Jan 26, 2009, 11:11:57 »
Seems a fair price for that lot of goodies.
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Ian

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Re: Imaging session Jan 2009
« Reply #25 on: Jan 26, 2009, 11:19:53 »
I reckon Bern has called out the elephant in the room. However, I don't think you need to buy all that in one go, but you might want to consider spending that over time as you improve.

What's your budget?

Carole

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Re: Imaging session Jan 2009
« Reply #26 on: Jan 26, 2009, 13:56:01 »
Quote
I reckon Bern has called out the elephant in the room
Sorry don't know that expression.  Do you mean he's doing a saleman job on me?

My budget.  Actually Ian I do have the money to buy it all, I was just trying to get a bit at a time rather than dip into my retirement savings, so I could save up and pay for it as I go along.  But I don't really mind buying it all in one go (so long as I can actually learn to use it all OK).

I was really wanting to know if you guys approved of the scope and cameras he has recommended.  The Mount seems to be the biggest expense but I do remember Mike saying you should buy the best you can afford.

There is a better camera for another £200 I was wondering whether while I am spending all that money if I should get a better one.  It is the QHY6 Pro also on http://www.modernastronomy.com/camerasQHY.htm#qhy8

Your opinions would be greatly appreciated as I don't want to spend all that money and then find I should have bought something else.

Would appreciate it if you could look at the specifications on the next Post:

Many thanks
Carole

Carole

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Re: Imaging session Jan 2009
« Reply #27 on: Jan 26, 2009, 13:59:15 »
to save you having to go into the site

The scope
Sky-Watcher Equinox - from £239
 
Highest Practical Power (Potential): x198
Objective Lens Diameter: 65mm, 80mm, 100mm and 120mm
Telescope Focal Length: 400mm (f/6), 600mm (f/6.25), 900mm (f/9) and 900mm (f7.5)
Supplied without Eyepieces, Finderscope and Star Diagonal
Dual-Speed 11:1 Backlash-Free 1.25" Crayford Focuser with adjustable focus-tension & 360 Rotatable
Retractable Dewshield (with aluminium cap)
Multi-Coated Objective Lens
Standard 1/4-20 Tripod Bush (will accept Sky-Watcher dovetail bars)
Foam-lined Aluminium Carrying/Storage case

The cheaper camera
QHY6 - from £339
 
Low cost, high quality camera from QHY with a highly sensitive Sony EX-View chip.

Total pixel: 795x596
Active pixels:752x582 (440k pixels)
Pixel Size: 6.5µm x 6.25µm square
TYPIC 1/3 inch
Mono Exview High sensitive CCD
Readout noise: 7 -10 e @600 Kpixel/s
QE: 65% at 580nm
Microlensing on chip
ABG: -115dB
Low noise 16bit ADC with CDS and Preamp
USB2.0 High Speed interface
Built in 6pin Guide Port
One stage TEC cooled


Camera package includes 1.25" nosepiece, 3m USB2 cable. Price includes delivery and VAT.

Software available includes Windows driver and capture application (2K, XP & Vista), Plugins for Maxim, AstroArt & Guidemaster.

The Dearer Camera
NEW! QHY6 Pro - from £589
 
New Camera with large sensitive pixels and a 1/2 inch Sony ExView chip

Total pixel: 795x596
Active pixels: 752x585 440kpixels
Pixel Size: 8.6µm x 8.3µm
Typic 1/2inch Exview CCD sensor ICX429AL
Readout noise: 6-8e @600 Kpixel/s
Preview Speed: 5Mpixel/s
Peak QE: 68% @620nm 62% @Ha
Microlensing on chip
ABG: -126dB
16bit ADC with CDS and Preamp
USB2.0 High Speed interface
2-Stage TEC cooling
DC102 DC adapter & TEC Controller Supported


Camera package includes 1.25" nosepiece, 3m USB2 cable. Price includes delivery and VAT.

Software available includes Windows driver and capture application (2K, XP & Vista), Plugins for Maxim, AstroArt & Guidemaster.

Carole

Tony G

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Re: Imaging session Jan 2009
« Reply #28 on: Jan 26, 2009, 23:07:55 »
Carole,

Now you have the prices and the details of all the equipment you are after, you could now go with cash in hand and see what deals you can do at Astrofest. If you cannot beat those prices, you can always go back to Bern the next day or so.

Good Luck

Tony G
"I'm normally not a praying man, but if you're up there, please save me Superman." - Homer Simpson

Carole

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Re: Imaging session Jan 2009
« Reply #29 on: Jan 26, 2009, 23:41:20 »
Quote
Now you have the prices and the details of all the equipment you are after, you could now go with cash in hand and see what deals you can do at Astrofest. If you cannot beat those prices, you can always go back to Bern the next day or so.
Yes, I was thinking that too, but it's the specifications I need advice on from people more experienced as I don't want to buy the wrong thing or miss a better option.

Carole

RobertM

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Re: Imaging session Jan 2009
« Reply #30 on: Jan 27, 2009, 12:38:03 »
There's this on on the SPA classifieds forum if your interested and I'm sure he would take an offer but see what others think first...

WO Megrez 72 APO, excellent condition. (£250)
CG5 GT mount, excellent condition. (£275)
WO Vixen-style dovetail plate (G-VP), excellent condition (£30)
WO 2" extender tube (WE-EX2, excellent condition (£20)
WO 0.8x reducer/field flattener V.III, excellent condition (£110)
Tele Vue 5x Powermate, excellent condition (£100)
Philips Toucam (PCVC840K/20), as new (£10)
Kood EOS adapter (£10)
WO 1.25" dielectric (£50)

Or...everything for £750.

Please contact me with offers...

Ian

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Re: Imaging session Jan 2009
« Reply #31 on: Jan 27, 2009, 14:23:55 »
I think that'd do nicely to be getting along with. You could always sell on anything in the kit you don't want. Then you've still got around 700 quid in the budget to get filters, new laptop and an observatory. Ok that might be pushing it a bit...

JohnP

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Re: Imaging session Jan 2009
« Reply #32 on: Jan 27, 2009, 14:48:43 »
Wot about camera?

My recommendation would definitely be to got LX modded B&W chipped webcam - You will learn loads - As I said in my talk at the session up High Elms things like finding the object, Focus, Processing, Guiding will be 90% of the issues you have & you can do all these with an inexpensive modded camera. If you really want to go with a dedicated B&W camera than you can't go far wrong with tAtik 16ic for £390 (less 2nd hand) It's what I still use.

John


Carole

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Re: Imaging session Jan 2009
« Reply #33 on: Jan 27, 2009, 17:54:37 »
Thanks for that tip off Robert, didn't know what half the things were, but have looked on the internet.  Not sure if I need all those items but will speak to Mike if I can this evening about the Mount and scope,

John, tAtik 16ic for £390 looks good, will have a search for a 2nd hand one as you suggested in the first instance.  what did you think of the one offered me by Bernard QHY6 post yesterdat at 1.59?

Carole


Carole

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Re: Imaging session Jan 2009
« Reply #34 on: Jan 27, 2009, 23:29:55 »
Hi Robert,

Following a chat with Mike tonight I have contacted the seller through the Site and am awaiting a reply.  Does depend where he lives though as I don't want to travel to the other side of the country to collect it.

Watch this space.

Carole

Mike

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Re: Imaging session Jan 2009
« Reply #35 on: Jan 27, 2009, 23:37:32 »
I am amazed this thread has gotten so off topic and has gone so far without the forum Police intervening  :o
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Carole

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Re: Imaging session Jan 2009
« Reply #36 on: Jan 28, 2009, 11:29:38 »
Quote
I am amazed this thread has gotten so off topic and has gone so far without the forum Police intervening
Yes so am I, can you re-name a thread?  Should be re-named, Carole's Efforts to progress to DS Imaging.

or shall I start a new one?

Just to say, thanks to Robert, looks like I will soon be the owner of:

WO Megrez 72 APO, excellent condition. (£250)
CG5 GT mount, excellent condition. (£275)
WO Vixen-style dovetail plate (G-VP), excellent condition (£30)
WO 2" extender tube (WE-EX2, excellent condition (£20)
WO 0.8x reducer/field flattener V.III, excellent condition (£110)
Tele Vue 5x Powermate, excellent condition (£100)
Philips Toucam (PCVC840K/20), as new (£10)
Kood EOS adapter (£10)
WO 1.25" dielectric (£50)

Then I will need to get the cameras.
Already got a Guidescope (Mark sold me one a while back)

Many thanks Mike for all your advice last night.

Carole