Wonderful evening with a sting in the tail

[Carole]

Had a really good evening last night, everything was working well. I managed to do one of the best alignments I've done and M45 (which has now risen just high enough beyond the roof of my house for me to image with the clocks going back), was in the same position without guiding for nearly two hours.  Got lots of subs (around 43) all with darks, did my first flats and Bias frames.  Did remote controlled live view and programmed timed subs for the first time, and used the focus mask which worked perfectly.  I almost got to do M42 but the clouds rolled in.

Anyway, the sting. 
I came in after I had packed up to look at what I had done, and all the subs have disappeared!!!!!!!!!  They were showing when I was outside imaging.

What happened?!!!

I took RAW images, so wondered whether they would not show up as thumbnails once saved, so went into DSS but this said there were no images (I tried all sub files both on the laptop and camera).  There were some .CR files, not sure what they were.

Is this something to do with doing it remotely I need to physically download to the laptop?  There was a box that came up asking if I wanted to acquire images which I ignored, but surely they should be on the memory card if I chose not to download them.  Only other thing I did was I had to change the battery on the camera, can't remember if they were still viewable after I had done that as it was around that point I decided to have a go at M42.

Does any-one have any ideas?

Carole

[Carole]

PS:  Come to think of it, last time I imaged (M31) the only thing I did differently was not use the timed programmer, but I controlled the camera shutter remotely from the laptop and had no problem with losing subs.  But then I did not change the camera battery and don't remember that "acquire images box" coming up last time.  I also didn't do RAWs last time. 

Carole

[Daniel]

Carole, good news......the CR2 files are the raw files, that's canon's raw format, also check wether the images you took are on the memory stick or the laptop, i normally capture directly to the laptop, the defailt place where they would save to would be in your My documents\Pictures folder.

Can't wait to see the results!

Daniel
:O)

[Carole]

the CR2 files are the raw files

Hi Daniel, I did wonder about that, but then why wouldn't DSS recognise them?

I believe they are on the laptop I think in pictures.  Don't have time to look until later today as just off to the Central Library to be the OAS representative for the day.

Also .CR2 is a bloody confusing name, why on earth don't they come up as .RAW!!!!!

Well I don't know how I am going to "get at them" if DSS keeps saying there are no files. 

Thanks
Carole

[JohnP]

Hi Carole,

When I use DSLR focus there is always an option to save files to laptop or camera. I'm not 100% sure but I think if you dont select either it doesn't save the files.....

Tony is the pro when it comes to loosing files so maybe ask him about how to locate them.

John.

PS - If you do a search on your PC for *.cr2 files it should locate them for you. Make sure you check the whole C drive

[Mac]

.cr2

=Canon Raw Version2

dss wont recognise them

,
have you selected raw file when you input the picture files

Just another question, well more of a have you.. as you are shooting raw,

have you selected Raw + Jp, as the image preferances?
That way you can see the finished image as a Jpg (thumbnails will appear)
and use the raw to stack.

also have you turned off long exposure noise reduction in the camera? ***This is a must***
otherwise the camera will try to remove the noise from the image before its saved.

Mac.

[MarkS]

Mac,

One correction: DSS happily recognises and processes raw CR2 files from a Canon.

Mark

[Mac]

One correction: DSS happily recognises and processes raw CR2 files from a Canon.

I know, i jst forgot to put the bit in to quotes, so it looks like a statement,

That looks better.,

[mickw]

Carole if you sit in your lounge with the laptop set up with all the cables plugged in and the camera pointing at anything you like, you can practice to your hearts content.  I don't mean set up the mount as well, just the camera.
That will give you the familiarity with your kit in comfort and without losing any "important" images.

The added bonus is you'll be near the tea pot/wine/beer (delete as apprpriate)

While trying to get my head round capture and long exposure software/hardware, I have taken about 20 images of my coat on the back of a chair over the last couple of days in the comport of my dining room in close proximity to beer 

Good luck

[Carole]

Thanks for the advice every-one. 

have you selected raw file when you input the picture files

This was the answer, whoops, still learning DSS. 

Have found the files now thank goodness. 

also have you turned off long exposure noise reduction in the camera? ***This is a must***
otherwise the camera will try to remove the noise from the image before its saved.

I thought this was the point of doing it having checked with others whether it was a good idea to do.  Have I misunderstood?

have you selected Raw + Jp, as the image preferances?

Didn't do this but had meant to. 

Also I opened another programme called digital photo professional and all the files were shown in Pictures folder (where they did not show elsewhere), shown as actual images, which was handy as I could choose which ones to use, one had a meteor in it which I wouldn't have known otherwise.

Carole if you sit in your lounge with the laptop set up with all the cables plugged in and the camera pointing at anything you like

Yes Mick, have already done that regarding remote camera control and programmed subs, but hadn't gone as far as retrieving the files afterwards in RAW format as I hadn't expected that to be such a problem.

Currently busy stacking and seeing what I've got.

Thanks again every-one

Carole

[Mac]

also have you turned off long exposure noise reduction in the camera? ***This is a must***
otherwise the camera will try to remove the noise from the image before its saved.
 

I thought this was the point of doing it having checked with others whether it was a good idea to do.  Have I misunderstood?

you dont want the camera to do the noise reduction,

so you have to turn off the noise reduction in the camera
or every photo will be processed by the camera!

you are doing this part of the processing youself with the dark frames.
in the stacking software.

Your dark frame is a photo of the noise which you use to remove from your light frames.

If you leave the noise reduction on in the camera, then your dark frame will have the noise that you have photographed removed  by the camera!!!!!!

Mac.

[Carole]

Hi Mac,

I'm confused now as I already had this discussion about autodarks with others who told me to do this, and that they often did it themselves.  But never mind its academic now because I don't think I'll be doing it again as I found out what one person predicted, that it's better to do the darks when it's cloudy and not waste good imaging time.

Anyway, I've spent the evening stacking and processing and this is what I have come up with.

25.10.09 -between 9 and 11.30 (ish).
29 x 30secs Lights (auto darks taken by Canon), Although I think DSS only stacked 23 Lights, therefore a total of 11 1/2 minutes.
4 flats and 1 Bias frame (Hope I took these correctly it was my first time).
Back Garden in Bromley, Canon EOS 450D, no guiding and no filters.
Processed in Photoshop

[MarkS]

Carole,

The stars are sharp and beautifully round (not elongated) and there is plenty of nebulosity beginning to appear.  For 30second exposures in a heavily light polluted environment that's not bad at all.

Well done. 

There's so much to get to grips with at first, as you are finding out!

Mark

[Mac]

thats a pretty good photo.

Looks like your on to step two of that ladder,

Once you get to grips and the familiarity of your equipment and software are second nature,
you'll be well on your way.

as Mickw said, set up everything indoors and image your wall, ect or the TV,
so that you can get to grips with all the little quirky bits,

Dont forget to label where all your leads go, until your familiar with your own set up.

[Carole]

Thanks Mark.

I must say apart from all the trials and tribulations in getting this far, I am finding the post-processing a huge challenge, and really could do with some lessons on this.

Or does every-one find this difficult and it's just a question of experimenting?

Thanks Mac,
I feel quite relieved at last to be getting some results and I'm so pleased you told me about that Focus Mask, it worked a treat. 

Carole

[Mike]

Don't try to run before you can walk. Practice using your equipment first. Forget about getting pretty pictures, just get to know how to sue the equipment and get your technique right first. Once you have mastered that, then step outside to get the images.

[RobertM]

Carole,

There's nothing wrong with autodarks at this stage but you don't want to be applying darks you've taken manually as well - it's either one or the other.  You will find however that spending half your imaging time on the autodarks (in camera noise reduction) is not a viable option as it wastes too much time as well as being unnecessary for longer sessions.  As Mike has just mentioned, familiarity with your kit and technique is essential.  I've spend numerous wasted hours so can vouch for that first hand.

btw. That's a very nice Pleiades, you must be dead chuffed!

I am finding the post-processing a huge challenge

Join the club !!!

Robert

[Jim]

Carole

Well done, that's a great picture

[JohnP]

Carole that is really very good for your first image & only 30secs... Great start - John

[Fay]

Very nice image, Carole, lots of nice subjects around to do now

[Simon E]

That is way cool. Well done, I'm gonna have to get out some more, to try and catch you up..... you are way ahead of me

I 'll be learning off you.

si

[Daniel]

Carole, that really is excellent, the stars are wonderfully round, and the nebulosity is coming through nicely. If you want a hand with the processing techniques I could show you some stuff if I have some time some weekend.

Daniel
:O)

[Carole]

Many thanks every-one.

I 'll be learning off you.

Well that will be a first, but like every-one else, always happy to help where I can, but if you want really expert advice I'm not the one to ask. 

If you want a hand with the processing techniques I could show you some stuff if I have some time some weekend.

Yes please Daniel.  I do have a certificate in Photoshop, but of course the techniques for Image processing are quite different.  I can then come back and show any-one else who wants to learn what I've learnt and give something back.  i.e. 

I am finding the post-processing a huge challenge  Join the club !!! 

Carole

[Carole]

I've spend numerous wasted hours so can vouch for that first hand.

Yup, have had quite a few of those already.

Carole

[Tony G]

Carole,

Great image, and glad to see that you are not giving up the easily. I hit a few hurdles when I started and it put me back, but you are now encouraging me to have another go with the canon and with the advice people are giving you, it is also helping me.
Keep up the good work, and I may be asking your advice soon.

Tony G

[Carole]

Thanks Tony. 

glad to see that you are not giving up the easily

Yes there have been times when I've been close, but I didn't want it to beat me.

with the advice people are giving you, it is also helping me

Yes it is always a good idea to keep notes of things being told to some-one else, thats what I have been doing at times. 

Carole

[The Thing]

Better than my best effort at the Pleaides and I've had a few goes.

Great stuff, keep at it Carol!

[Carole]

Thanks Duncan.
Would never have got this far without all the advice I have had from every-one.   

Carole

[Carole]

While the skies have been awful I have been practicising post-processing.  When I originally processed this image (see above) it looked absolutely vile in colour, so I cheated and converted it to B&W and then added back some blue.

Anyway, I have managed to re-processed M45 in colour this time and used Iris to remove the light pollution (as per Mark's talk and advice), and used a combination of Iris and Photoshop.

I'm not sure whether this is an improvement or not, but at least I I managed to do it in colour this time.



Carole

[MarkS]

Carole, 

The colours look far more natural this time round.

Since you are using IRIS, you can reduce the star bloat by doing "View | Colour Stretching" and adjust the "Stretch" sliding bar to the desired effect.

Once you've done that then use "Geometry | Binning" to reduce the image size by say 3.  This has the effect of summing pixels and will help to reduce noise on the fainter nebulosity.  You'll need to adjust the "Threshold" sliders (or use Auto) to adjust the image brightness afterwards.

After that, to reduce noise further, place a rectangle around some noisy background -  right click and choose "Statistics" to obtain it's sigma (this is the same as standard deviation).  You can then choose "Processing | Adaptive Filter" and enter that value of sigma into the "Noise" entry.  The results can sometimes look a bit unnatural so I often put just half the sigma in the noise box.  However, you might find that Photoshop has some better noise reduction - I find the Noise Filter in Photoshop Elements 3.0 be be excellent - it has 3 sliders for "Strength", "Preserve Details" and "Reduce Colour Noise".  I don't know if the full  version of Photoshop has the same thing.

Mark

[Carole]

Thanks Mark,

I'll see if I can give all that a "go" when my visitors have gone. I think colour stretching was one of the tools I used (must keep a note of these things).

I realise there is a lot of noise in this image, but hopefully once I manage to do longer subs and more of them this will be less of a problem.  

Noise Filter in Photoshop Elements 3.0 be be excellent - it has 3 sliders for "Strength", "Preserve Details" and "Reduce Colour Noise". 

I don't recognise any of these from the full version of photoshop that I have.  I am wondering whether I have photoshop elements somewhere, must have a look.

Thanks for all your help.

Carole

[Mac]

I don't recognise any of these from the full version of photoshop that I have.  I am wondering whether I have photoshop elements somewhere, must have a look.

Carol, the photshop elements, is a cut down version of the full package,
These sliders in Elements are there for, say, normal people to use.

I.e people with little experience of photo editing, they take out all the manual HARD work.
You can do exactly the same in photoshop, except, it takes a lot longer as you dont have the preset sliders
and you have to do it manually, although, the results should allow for better results as you can tweek more.


If i were you i'd do the following.

1) Load a normal picture, i.e. not an astro one. into photoshop. make sure its a copy!!!!!
2) Play with each effect in photoshop to see exactly what it does. (Its easier to see the subtle results on a normall photos)
3) When your doing filters. DONT use the filters from the filters menu as this will apply the filter but wont allow you an easy way to undo the effect.
4) When you apply your filter do it from the bottom of the layers box. At the bottom you have a circle which is half black and half white.
    This gives you all the filters but adds them as layers. If you dont want the effect you just untick the filter layer. and its easier to change the setting for the filter as well.
    that way you can see the effects of multiple filters.


Mac.

[Carole]

Hi Mac,

Have been out of action for a couple of days as I had visitors.  That's a useful tip.
Thanks
Carole