I have been wanting to get into Astrophotography for some time having also been inspired by my visit to COAA and weighing things up, I think a Digital camera is the route I might go down (although not absolutely sure yet).
I have now discovered you need an SLR camera and not the compact sort I already have. However need some help and advice from some-one who knows what equipment etc I will need and wonder whether some-one would be willing to act as my mentor.
Not quite sure when I will be ready to purchase a camera, but as least I can be considering what to buy and looking around if I get the right advice.
Thanks
Carole
well yes, and no. If you're interested in starting out, you can use a compact camera to take photos of the moon through an eyepiece. That at least would start you off on the slippery slope toward shouting obscenities at anyone with laser pointer at DSC.
However, as you can see from Johns images from the last DSC a digital SLR can give some excellent results. However, it would be worth investigating if it's possible to connect an SLR, which is a bulky camera, to a relatively small scope. IIRC you have an ETX?
Carole I agree with Ian.
Firstly you can attach an SLR to the ETX although the weight might cause some balance issues and it may require some sort of counterbalance (should be simple to sort out though). However if attached at the rear you would be restricted to subjects nearer to the horizon, with an SLR attached you would not be able to raise the scope much more than 40 degrees from horizontal. Or you could use a 1.25" eyepiece adapter and have the camera mounted in the eyepiece holder which would give more flexibility.
Telescope House sell a Universal Digiscope Adapter for £40, it clamps round your eyepiece and you attach your compact camera to it - I have just got one.
If you are observing on the 9th, I'll be glad to bring it along.
I have not got a clue about astro imaging except for what I've read here, hopefully, this setup will give me some insight into what is required and was is possible.
Good luck,
Mick
I think the problem would be in the scope mount. The ETX mount is nowhere even close to being good enough for long exposures. However, it would be good enough for shots of the moon and planets and for that a simple webcam would suffice.
Thanks for all that advice every-one.
I am hoping to get along for 9th, if not 13th.
Two comments here. Firstly I am sure the ETX has an alternative "camera port" at the end. Plus the usual port (where the eyepiece goes is on the top, not at the end so I can't see the camera causing an obstruction if that is what you meant. Plus I was expecting to use a counterweight.
Mike, I was only intending to do exposures for the sort of length of time we did in COAA which were upto 2 minutes and the results were very pleasing, or was this because the skies were good there? Will the ETX not be good enough for that?
Other alternative is to get a webcam but I don't have a laptop, or at least I have been offered one but the battery life would not last for more than an hour. Plus would need lots of advice on what else I will need to go with this and how to do it and are you all willing to do this?
I thought a camera might be more straight forward and I would need less advice once I had bought the correct equipment.
Carole
Quote from: Carolepope on Oct 08, 2007, 13:02:16Mike, I was only intending to do exposures for the sort of length of time we did in COAA which were upto 2 minutes and the results were very pleasing, or was this because the skies were good there? Will the ETX not be good enough for that?
Remember that you are talking about 2 minute exposures on a substantially more capable mount than the ETX mount, plus I think you did manual guiding at COAA if I am right? The 2 fork mounts at COAA were very accurate and stable and the smaller (Gemini?) mounts are also very capable mounts. Two minutes might not seem like a long time, but an errors in your mounts drive system within those two minutes, which is probably around the cycle length of the worm, will produce out of shape stars.
well there'll be no shortage of advice ;)
I don't usually manage to get to imaging sessions, but certainly at DSC there's scope (pardon the pun) for us to try various means of getting you imaging. There's quite a learning curve, as you're finding, as well as some basic investments. I have webcams you could borrow (obviously if you can get access to a laptop...)
Even using the camera port on the back of the scope (I don't think you'll reach focus using the eyepiece "hole"), I would be concerned that the camera would stop the scope rising much above the horizon. I would enlist the help of someone with DSLR to answer this question once and for all. Also, do you use a wedge? It would help with that by raising the scope up, and it also removes field rotation. This is an effect you'll see quite quickly using an alt-az mount.
Understanding what your current equipment is capable of is a massive first step.
Question for anyone else: is anyone else imaging using an ETX? I think Carole could do with talking with you...
Not me boss, I sold my ETX because it was not good enough for DSO's ok for web cam imaging though.
Carol, the key thing here is expense, the amount you are willing to spend will have a direct effect on the type of kit and pictures you will end up with.
Personally if I we're to do it all again I would start with a SLR and tracker mount for wide field images, but that's only going to work well at DSC. But even then you will be spending £500+ minimum to get any good pictures, and a whole lot more to get great ones. In fact I'm positive if some of our other halves knew how much we had actually spent on the hobby, it would have the same effect as them finding out we slept with another person on a sofa, if you know what I mean :o
If you want to do planetary, get a web cam your scope will be fine but don't expect hubble type images.
As for mentoring, this is an extremely patient taxing hobby, akin to discussing the rights of free speech to Lenin. I'm not sure any of us have enough time to become a "mentor", what you need is the sheer determination of Fay, a few bob (money not men), beer, wine, more beer and a deep pockets (more money) that should get you through the 1st 3 months, then it get difficult and everything goes wrong just as you think you are getting the hang of it. And then it rains a lot. Having said that it is kinda cool when it works.
I think I speak for all of us here when I say the best thing to do is get a book 1st and start from there. Decide what you are going to image and then research the subject before you start. Use the yahoo groups and also UKAstroImaging web site, loads of help there from people who do not seem to work and therefore can offer advice.
Also Ian King runs imaging courses, you might want to get onto one of those!
Chris
I would like to ditto Chris's comments & also add that 2mins might not sound a lot but when you have to track something with sub-pixel accuracy for this length of time believe me it is... took me about 3 years & a couple of grand before I got there....
You will also need some form of PC or laptop for post processing at the bare minimum plus all the s/w that goes with it.... Just ask Fay... :-)
John.
Hmmm, Well I understood some of all that, thanks guys for all the advice. If I've understood right the tracking on the ETX is not good enough for long exposures.
The idea of a loan of a web cam for practice before I lay out money on something I might not get to grips with, sounds a good idea. I could use the lap top I have been offered for trying out purposes. then If I find I want to continue I can purchase my own.
Many thanks we'll talk further.
Carole
I would highly recommend you buy the excellent book - "The New CCD Astronomy by Ron Wodaski".
Hi Carole
I am reading 'Lundar and Planetary Webcam User's Guide' by Martin Mobberley. It is aimed at absolute beginners and I am finding it very informative. Among other things it tells you what type of equipment you need for the type of imaging you are going to do and why. In other words my scope and mount would only cope with a webcam and lunar and planetary imaging! Also explains the stacking software.
Delphine [the one that looks like an observatory!]
This thread has gone off topic again ! :twisted:
Yes, but keep going, I might beat Fay's record for the most replied to posting.
Delphine that book you recommended sounds good for a beginner so will put it on my Christmas list if I haven't bought it before.
Thanks
Carole
Carole,
your best bet would be to learn from Delphine, Jim & Miriam, as they are just on that first rung of the ladder.
You like the planets & Moon more than deep sky so, I think what you will need to start is:
A decent, reliable laptop with at least a 3 hour battery life & 4 USB2 ports.
A webcam, with correct cables, filter & connector which is for planets & Moon.
Preferably a better telescope, but perhaps yours will be ok for the above.
K3CCD capturing programme, about £25.
Registax (free) stacking program.
Once you go into long exposures & guiding, it is a different ballgame, that I feel you may not want to get into.
Fay
Quote from: Fay on Oct 11, 2007, 10:53:09Preferably a better telescope, but perhaps yours will be ok for the above.
Carol the scope and mount you have at the moment will be perfectly fine for doing the Moon and planets. All you would need to add to Fay's list would be a good quality Barlow of at least x3. As the moon and planets only require very short exposures and lots of them, guiding isn't necessary. A good level mount that is polar aligned accurately will do the trick adn the optics on the ETX are very good for planetary stuff, particularly the moon. This would be the cheapest option. Webcams are around £40 and a new laptop is around £300. Second hand laptops can be purchased on eBay for around £100 that would do the trick. Then you just need a decent Barlow (about £100) and perhaps a neutral density filter for the moon (£20).
I agree with wot Fay and Mike say, but to clarify...
You can add USB ports to a laptop with a reasonably priced card, and you will probably only need one to begin with. I agree with USB2, but toucams are USB1 and they are still the best bet for astro work...
As you're currently using a catadioptric scope, which has a lens in the image path it's advisable to use an infra-red block filter. Webcams have them as standard but they're usually built into the lens that you'll be removing to attach to the scope. Just order one to fit the adaptor for camera and scope you'll inevitably have to buy. Planetary imaging is usually done with a barlow too, as they're tiny, which makes an IR filter a must.
Do you have a wedge for your ETX? That might help with alignment and tracking (if aligned well, only one motor needs to run to track the planet).
I've never used an ND filter on the moon, I don't think the ETX will give an image that bright. The webcam's electronic shutters are fast enough to cope...
If you get an older laptop with a duff battery, they can be run off a car battery (bearing in mind you'll have to carry it around, which I know is Fay's concern) and 3 hours is quite an ask even for a new laptop if you're imaging. The laptop can't power down the hard drive, you'll be writing to it all the time and after the screen backlight that accounts for a major portion of the power useage. A small car battery will power a laptop all night, and probably your scope too.
I would use K3CCDTools v1 which is free. It's good enough to start, and as Fay said £25 for the latest version won't be your most expensive purchase.
Yes, I was only giving Carole a very basic list, to start with, did not want to scare her off, with batteries etc. I would think she would first practise in the garden & would use the mains.
I forgot about the Barlow.
Fay
Just to confuse everyone here, that ETX Cat has a central obstruction of about 20% and an exit diameter of about 9mm, this is going to make it quite useless for a SLR :-)
Sorry just a thought.
Quote from: Space Dog on Oct 11, 2007, 12:20:53
the cat on the mead
Of course, it's better to use purpose designed counterweights. Our feline friends have a habit of jumping off scopes at inconvenient moments. Particularly if Space Dog barks.
You've now all overwhelmed me with so much information (and many thanks) that I am now thinking I need to put this off until after I've retired so I have more time to get my head around it all and read up before I make a purchase/decision. I'm retiring end of 2008. In the mean time I will try to do some reading and follow what Miriam and Delphine are doing.
In reply to you question Ian
"Do you have a wedge for your ETX?"
I don't know what a wedge is so I guess I don't have one.
Fay, just to clarify, I like deep sky just as much as planets, don't know how you formed that impression.
Carole
sorry, been a bit verbose...
The ETX is usually used as an alt-azimuth mounted scope, so the base is horizontal. This is fine for visual observing, but less good for lunar and planetary imaging, and hopeless for long exposure. This is because as the target tracks across the sky it appears to rotate in the eyepiece as it goes. The other reason is to track across the sky, an alt-az needs to use both motors.
The alternative is to align the mount with the rotation of earth which in the UK means tilting the base to an angle. If you can remember Mac's scope from DSC, he had that on a wedge that does just that. The image won't rotate and only one motor is needed to track.
If you have access to any laptop made in the last 5 to 6 years, you'll be able to do imaging with it, provided you can power it, and you're welcome to borrow one of my Toucams to have a go. I'd start with lunar, mainly because the best planets, Jupiter and Saturn are not best placed for photography at the moment. You will probably have more success if you have access to a barlow too.
I didn't mean to scare you off :(
At Herstmonceaux etc you have always been interested in the planetary observing days & I think you once said to me that they were more interesting to look at than stars.
Fay
Carol
I will try to remember to bring the webcam imaging book to the next meeting so that you can have a look at it before you buy it.
Delphine
Hi Ian,
I think I know what you're driving at now (excuse the pun). I seem to recall that an ETX can be (what they call in the operating instructions) "polar aligned", where you tip up the base according to the latutide you are at. As I have never had to use this so far I had forgotten about it, I will have to read this up. I remember doing this on my previous telescope which was on a newtonian mount but didn't track, plus it was very difficult to take anywhere as so many fiddly bits had to come apart, which was why I bought an ETX for tracking and portability.
I had also noticed on my ETX when I am viewing objects being tracked that they do indeed move in an arced way and thought the telescope was faulty or I had done something wrong, plus I could never really understand how Alt/Az could work accurately and now all this is making sense.
OK, so if I can borrow your webcam and bring a charged up laptop and telescope, what else do I need (i.e. software installed on lap top?) just to get started?
Which Ian are you by the way? I am sure there are two, maybe you can "reveal yourself" to me at the next meeting. (That will keep this thread going for some time yet!!!!)
Fay: Yes I do seem to recall that conversion, but I was referring to stars as single item points of light which the observatory seems to point their telescopes at on public evenings which are boring on their own. I am very interested in nebulae, supernova remnants, galaxies etc etc.
Sorry if I misled you, I wondered why you had said this on a number of occasions before.
Carole
I think I was the sole Ian at DSC... Usually scruffy, with a chin full of fluff.
If you bring a laptop to next meeting, could you let me know in advance what version of windows it has on it? I'll need to know to install the camera drivers. I'll also bring a copy of K3CCDTools and other stuff with me too.
Don't take the request to "reveal yourself" too literally, Ian.
Fay
Quote from: Ian on Oct 12, 2007, 14:38:35
I think I was the sole Ian at DSC... Usually scruffy, with a chin full of fluff.
Sparticas moment comming up!
Hello Carole
From a mere beginner!
Delphine and I managed to get a picture of Jupiter and four moons at DSC, using a webcam, laptop and Delphine's scope. A bit hit and miss to start with, but we had plenty of advice.
Jeff and I had another attempt at photography in the garden during the following week, partly to see if we could get an image without all the expert advice. I was pleased with the basic images (just a single frame - no processing) but acknowledge there is a lot to learn . . .
Roll on clear nights!
PS I didn't take the photo of Hale Bopp at Stonehenge (see left)
Ian,
I thought I had sent you a personal message but not sure if you got it. Can you E mail me so we can discuss further, as I don't think every-one wants to read all my technical questions and learning stages. You asked what system the laptop runs on and it is Windows Me. It won;t connect to my broadband unfortunately as I tried this once before.
Carole
Hang on there, don't go away! I want to hear your technical questions and learning stages - I am finding this thread extremely useful. This is a discussion forum after all.
Cheers
Delphine
Hi Carole,
I've just seen your PMs. We can carry on using email if you *really* want to, but as Delphine says there are several members doing much the same at the moment. Windows ME shouldn't be a problem, but I've never actually used that one myself. I can get drivers for the toucam for it, and K3CCDTools should work too.
Windows ME has a reputation as being possibly the worst Operating System that Microsoft have ever made. I know I have heard of lots of tales of instability and driver issues with that OS so maybe an upgrade to XP (if your system can take it) or Windows 2000 (if it can't) might be better. Test if first and see if you have any issues, if not then you won't need to do the above.
Carole you can only "tip up the base" if you buy a seperate wedge to convert the mount from alt/az to eq, which as Ian says, is pretty much essential if you want to eliminate field rotation.
OK, if there are those who want this discussion to continue publicly I'll continue.
In response to Mike. I have never heard of Me operating system before and it doesn't actually belong to me, so perhaps I need to obtain another laptop, although I don't particularly want to go out buying new stuff until I am sure it's all going to work (including my own abilities!). I actually hate working with laptops as I find those little "mouse substitute pads" extremely fiddly to use, so would only be using a laptop for Astronomy purposes. Unless I can plug a mouse into it. There is no mention at all of such a thing as a wedge in the ETX instruction book, so how they expect any-one to know about it goodness only knows, so I now need some advice on that too.
to Ian: Many thanks for all your help. I am planning to go to the Observing tonight, if I bring my equipment and instructions books with me, then if you are there we can chat further. Will I need any applications on the laptop on which to download anything from the webcam? If so, are they available on the internet, or can I use something I already have? Sorry, but quite green about all this.
Carole
sorry Carole, I can't make observing tonight (in fact it's been waaaay too long since I have :( ) Of course, there'll be other peeps who can start the ball rolling...
I'll be at the meeting Thursday though. And yes, you can plug a mouse into a laptop. I'd see if we can get the one you have got to work before you start taking trips down to PC World...
You'll need to add some software, I'd recommend K3ccdtools version 1 from www.pk3.org I can bring it on cdrom, but if you download it and install it first, that'd be great.
Mike/Carole,
The ETX (PE anyway) does tilt for polar alignment, the base tilts and is locked by a sliding rod.
Not as accurate or rigid as a wedge, but it can be done.
Mick
Quote from: mickw on Oct 15, 2007, 16:39:08The ETX (PE anyway) does tilt for polar alignment, the base tilts and is locked by a sliding rod.
Ahh yes you are right Mick. I forgot teh ETX had that on it. Oh well Carole that is good news, you just need to use that then - No cost at all !!
only if you have a PE variant...
Right then. My next hurdle, and this is a non astronomical one, is getting the laptop connected to the internet to download (K3ccdtools version 1 from www.pk3.org). As I mentioned before I couldn't use my latest broadband on this Plaptop but I could my previous broadband. (I was upgraded when I changed to Talk3 International). Not sure whether this is going to cause a problem with my connection if I keep swapping PCs and types of broadband into the same telephone line. Does any-one know if this will cause a problem?
I think I might contact my ISP to be on the safe side. I will only be running one at a time. If I can't download onto it will your CD be OK instead Ian?
So, one step at a time.
Carole
Did you get a setup CD from your ISP ?
If yes, run it on every PC you want to use, that should help for a start.
If not, turn on both computers and manually copy the settings from the "worker" to the other one. You might have to do some of this even if you run the CD.
Good luck,
Mick
If you have a router and this laptop has a LAN connection then it will connect to the internet. You must have the wrong settings.
All I have is the laptop, I was only given this on loan originally to see if I could download my old broadband (as I was having troubleconnecting and to see if it was a problem with my desktop). Since then the person who loaned it said I could buy it off him as he no longer uses it, but I said I would wait and see if I could use it for Astronomy purposes. I have never been given the CD, although I expect he still has it if required. No I don't have a router.
I'm going to try out the internet connection as I'm not sure how to copy from one PC to another, I can't burn CDs on my desk top, it seems to be faulty. If the internet works no problem, if it doesn't then I'll have to think again. will try this evening hopefully.
Once that is all up and running I'll look into getting a cordless mouse for the laptop as it only has 2 USB ports and I think you said I needed two for Astronomy purposes.
Carole
Carole, Cordless mouse would be bottom of my list of 'wants'....! John
Exactly, and with the addition of a USB hub (£5-£10) you can plug in as many USB devices as it will take.
Sorry to put my oar in again, but bear in mind that you want to plug the camera into a port of it's own. It'll use all the bandwidth a USB1 port can give. Mice, serial adaptors, coffee cup warmers, SAM launchers and lava lamps can all be connected to another.
Yup I'll get a hub, don't care which way I do it so long as I get a mouse. Hate using those fiddly pads.
Ian are we talking about cameras here or webcams?
Carole
webcams. It's best to give them their own port. I can't think of anything else we might be using that uses anywhere near as much bandwidth...
In other words if there are two USB hubs, put the webcam in one on it's own and your hub in the other with any other devices attached.
Yep, understand all that.
Will try the download in the first instance as if I can't load the software onto the laptop then there's no point in getting anything to go with it yet.
Download tonight.
Day off tomorrow, so if download works can see about getting a hub and mouse tomorrow.
Fingers crossed.
If it doesn't work will have to rely on your CD Ian (thanks).
Carole
Progress report:
I managed to connect the laptop to the internet using my old version of broadband and modem.
Got into www.pk3.org
I found K3CCDDtools version 1 but when you click on the link to download it is called:
K3CCDTools ver 1.1.7.541 (05.03.2004)
What arrived on my desktop said:
K3CCDtools_full_1_1_
So not sure if I've got the right version.
There is also talk about:
The latest free key is available on K3CCDTools free key page.
Do I need this too?
Unfortunately the broadband link has now dropped and I can't seem to get it back again on the laptop, so I am now back on my desktop.
Can you let me know if I've downloaded the right thing as I can't find anything else fitting that description and do I need this Tools Free key?
Carole
If the program you've downloaded runs ok and installs that's fine. It's just chopped the end of the filename. If I recall correctly you'll need the free key. It's just a case of copying the whole block of text and pasting it into the program. The instructions are on PK3's website.
The internet connection has been dropping out all evening on the desktop as well as the laptop so have had to give up. This happens from time to time and is very annoying. Others days no problem at all. When I ask my ISP about it they deny there is a problem. Only just got on again now to write this message, but don;t know how long it will last.
Have not been able to download the tools key and the programme doesn't seem to do anything without it. Will have to try again tomorrow.
Very frustrating.
Carole
I'm making some progress. I've bought a mouse for the laptop (relief) and managed to get it on-line again today and I think I've installed K3ccdtools version 1 and the key OK.
I'll bring the laptop to the meeting next week Ian.
I didn't get a hub today as they were asking whether I have a USB1 or USB2 port. I haven't a clue!!!
How can I tell?
There's nothing marked on the ports, and MY Computer doesn't seem to have that info.
Apparently USB2 is faster.
Carole
Ok ok, you've done it - This is now officially the longest thread ever. :police:
I know, I realised that it would be, but is this going to be to my credit or discredit???
Carole